This Southern Baptist leader in Washington, DC., saw my entire video of the talk at Indian Institute of Science (Bangalore): "Rajiv Malhotra explains his systems model of History Centrism"
You can watch this video at: http://beingdifferentbook.com/iisc-video-1/
Then he wrote a rejoinder to me, which a friend in the DC area was kind enough to forward to me. I have been having such exchanges frequently for many years as part of my purva paksha. Since many persons here do not have such experience, I am passing on this particular criticism, along with my responses which are yellow highlighted in square brackets after each of his points [replaced by RM here]. There is nothing new he says that I havent heard many times before. Many of his statements are outright false, some are a play on semantics. SB stands for Southern Baptist.
#########################
SB: Others attained salvation (saving grace) before Jesus appeared in human form on the earth. At that time Jews lived under the system of laws, not grace. Their faith in attempting to keep the law was accepted as righteousness.
RM: He is referring to Jews only, not ALL others. So my point remains that humanity at large was eligible for salvation only after Jesus.
SB response: Not quite – Christ existed from the very beginning with God. Mary was used as a mechanism to bring Christ into the world as a descendent of Abraham (prophet) and David (prophet) to fulfill prophecy. Christians believe Jesus is God.
RM response: While Christ existed before, Jesus the human has a defined beginning in time. Thats why Christmas is celebrated and the start of the Christian calendar. Christians believe that Jesus = Christ's incarnation. So Jesus WAS born from God and Mary, hence the only human ever to be absolved from Original Sin. That's my point.
#########################
SB: Hindus believe we started out divine. – The divine was lost? God became corrupt in human form? How did man lose his divinity and start to sin, or does sin exist in Hinduism?
RM: He needs to understand the concept of avidya. Because he does not, his only recourse is to substitute it with Original Sin which is entirely different.
#########################
Video Timeline 20:00 Christianity was started by Emperor Constantine.
SB: Christ never used the term Christian. Churches started under Constantine. SB response: Constantine originally killed Christians. Christian means Christ like. The Apostles and Jesus' earthly brothers started churches.
RM: Wrong. It is true that Constantine did "originally" kill Christians, but that was before he became Christian himself. This is a slick manipulation on SB's part. The relevant point is that the NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN BY AN EDITORIAL TEAM UNDER CONSTANTINE. Whatever the early apostles and "earthly brothers" taught was superseded by the Church as a theocratic institution that went on a global rampage to conquer, plunder... which continues today by institutions such as Southern Baptist Church in places like Nagaland. Also, the early "brothers" included some like Thomas who got thrown out of the bible because their ideas were counter to centralized thought control. I am referring to Christianity as it exists now as a formal institution, the Southern Baptist Church being a prominent example.
#########################
Video Timeline 25:16 Mentions Vatican as root of Christianity.
SB: Catholicism is not Christianity.
RM: Protestantism came out of Catholicism through the process known as Reformation by Martin Luther. So Vatican, the root of Catholicism, is also the root of Christianity's various branches that splintered off later.
#########################
Video: They say according to Christianity, Gandhi would not have gone to heaven.
SB: Christians are prohibited from making this judgment.
RM: SB is being evasive. Christians are NOT prohibited from saying that anyone who does not accept Jesus goes to Hell. SB must watch his own church's sermons, including such luminaries like Billy Graham - always using fear of hell to tell them that Jesus is the ONLY way. If they accepted that heaven is possible without accepting Jesus, the whole game would change - church would not have exclusivity, other religions would have to be respected, the power structure and clash with heathens would end - SB should champion this internally in his church.
#########################
Video Timeline 26:41 Man cannot bridge the gap to God.
SB: We are to speak directly to God through prayer. God speaks to man through dreams, prophets, situations, and sometimes directly.
RM: By rejecting our position he confirms my statement that we differ in irreconcilable ways.
#########################
Video Timeline 28:06 Mention of Mormons.
SB: Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were con-artists and not Christians.
RM: This posture illustrates my systems model : They have a linear and exclusive chronology of prophets that ended long ago, and all claims by those outside that chronology are to be demonized in the way he does here.
#########################
Video Timeline: 29:43 Jews cannot accept Jesus.
SB: Jews are waiting on Jesus to come, but they are expecting him to come as a conquering king. Many Jews have accepted Christ or become secular.
RM: My point is still valid. Jews do NOT accept the same Jesus as Christianity. They might accept some future Jesus but not the history-centric Jesus of Nazareth as per Christianity. These two religions have separate and irreconcilable history-centric beliefs.
#########################
Video Timeline 30:20 Provides a few stipulations for being Jesus.
SB: In actuality there are many.
RM: So what? My point stands that the Jesus state of consciousness is not available to any other human as per Christianity, which is in contrast to the Hindu view of aham Brahmamsi (I am Brahman).
#########################
Video Timeline 31:29 Islam says Jesus is just an ordinary human prophet.
SB: True. Mohammed was a con-man that borrowed a little from the Bible. First converts to Islam were Jews. Mohammed murdered many and was interested in raiding caravans, rapes, robbery, and murder – not exactly a righteous man.
RM: He is agreeing with my point that that the history-centrism of Islam and the history-centrism of Christianity are mutually contradictory.
#########################
Ref: Comments by T.V. Mohandas Pai, former board member of Infosys
SB: The West was able to dominate the East because of the divisions among the people of the East. The West did not cause the East to assimilate, the East (Indus Vally) has always assimilated with every conquering culture. The East, especially in recent times, is more anxious than ever to embrace every concept of the West. This has led to its economic success and freedom.
RM: This is the standard Eurocentric account of history. While the east was divided, so also was the west. The west's aggression based on Christian atrocities cannot be blamed on the victims. Secondly, the east had pre-colonial science, technologies, materials success - the subject of our 20 volumes series and Needham's 30 volumes on China. The west appropriated much of eastern rational thought, science, steel and textile technologies and other areas of knowledge, which is the subject of my forthcoming U-Turn Series of books.
#########################
Ref: Q & A
SB: Rajiv quotes a Jesuit Catholic and a Vatican Catholic Harvard professor – they aren't Christians. Catholicism rejects much of what the Bible says. Catholics worship Mary and the "Saints".
RM: This attitude that "my Southern Baptism is the only legit Christianity" is precisely what I wish to bring out as the curse of history centrism. Thanks to SB for helping me make my point.
#########################
SB: Rajiv says Pagan means country Bumpkin. Not true. The common meaning of Pagan: follower of polytheism.
RM: People who were polytheistic got branded "pagan" which had the meaning of country bumpkins.
#########################
Video: "If it weren't for the Church, Jesus would have just been considered a Rishi"
SB: this isn't true. The Bible says everything was created w/ Christ and nothing was created without him.
RM: In the Hindu system, too, everything is created from Brahman, in fact everything IS Brahman. My point is different and he either does not understand or want to understand. Rishi state is available to every human and is unity consciousness with Brahman. Jesus state is not available to any other person. Thats the difference, not how the world was created.
Video: "…Christian yoga…"
SB: I know of no Christian Church that offers yoga.
RM: This shows how ignorant he is or is in denial in front of Hindus to dupe them. He should google "christian yoga", go to a christian bookstore, do some research into this form of yoga that is spreading like wild fire.
#########################
%%%% Different Version of same dialog %%%%
SB--Others attained salvation (saving grace) before Jesus appeared in human form on the earth. At that time Jews lived under the system of laws, not grace. Their faith in attempting to keep the law was accepted as righteousness.
RM--He is referring to Jews only, not ALL others. So my point remains that humanity at large was eligible for salvation only after Jesus.
SB-- After the fall of man, God promised to bring forth a seed from the woman who will conquer Satan. The Book of Genesis hints of a Savior to come in the future to save humanity, past and present. This type of foreshadowing is presented throughout the Old Testament from Genesis to Malachi.
Meanwhile, God had to show his children that there are consequences to sin. The Scripture states that sin deserves death. Because of God's mercy towards us, He allowed a substitute to take our place with animal sacrifices. This was a death-for-life substitution. The innocent lamb's blood was shed as a payment for sin, but it signified life to the sinner as a sign of forgiveness. One has to wonder why God would allow such a repugnant practice for sin. The Scripture is clear that God wanted us to understand the seriousness of sin and the consequences. People would have cheapened sin if anything less than blood and sacrifice of life was offered. When an individual heard the bleating cries of an innocent lamb and saw its blood spilled, smelled the burnt offering, then that individual was brought to a sobering thought: "I deserved to die for my sin; that sheep died in my place."
From Adam to Jacob (renamed to Israel by God later) were non-Jews. Adam, Abraham, Ruth, Rehab to name a few were non-Jews who received salvation because they believed. Some non-Jewish cities were saved due to their faith such as the Assyrian city of Nineveh during the reign of Jeroboam II, the king of Israel (approx. 785BC). God is readily available 24/7 to all as written in the Scriptures. It is us that reject Him by following ungodly philosophies.
Romans 1:20-24—"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts of sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."
RM--Jesus was born from God and Mary.
SB--Not quite – Christ existed from the very beginning with God. Mary was used as a mechanism to bring Christ into the world as a descendent of Abraham (prophet) and David (prophet) to fulfill prophecy. Christians believe Jesus is God.
RM--While Christ existed before, Jesus the human has a defined beginning in time. Thats why Christmas is celebrated and the start of the Christian calendar. Christians believe that Jesus = Christ's incarnation. So Jesus WAS born from God and Mary, hence the only human ever to be absolved from Original Sin. That's my point.
SB--Jesus and Christ are both names used to refer to the same instantiation. The first name for God's earthly human form was actually "Immanuel" which means "God with us". The prophet Isaiah, 700 years before Jesus birth, called Him Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. The prophet, Jeremiah called him Jehovah, Our Righteousness. Unlike reincarnation, where one does not recall what one was or ones deeds or as a transitory state for elevation/escape, Jesus is simply the same being with different titles. The early Christians did not believe in celebrating birth days, this was considered pagan. To celebrate His birthday was also believed to deny His eternal and pre-human existence. Christmas day is nowhere near the actual day of Christ Jesus' appearance on the earth in human form. There were many humans prior to Christ Jesus' appearance who had a direct relationship/bond with God. This occurred from the very beginning – patriarchs Adam, Seth, Enoch (did not die, but went straight to heaven), Noah, Methuselah, Elijah (did not die, went straight to heaven), Abraham… The Bible does not try to provide an all-inclusive list. Depending on one's perspective, Judaism started with either Methuselah (priest-king to Abraham), Abraham or Jacob (grandson of Abraham), but worship of the true God and means for salvation were provided from the very beginning. One example: Jews sacrificed animals from Abel (son of first man Adam) till shortly after Christ Jesus' crucifixion (stopped around AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem).
SB--Hindus believe we started out divine. – The divine was lost? God became corrupt in human form? How did man lose his divinity and start to sin, or does sin exist in Hinduism?
RM--He needs to understand the concept of avidya. Because he does not, his only recourse is to substitute it with Original Sin which is entirely different.
SB--In Genesis 3:5, Satan convinces Eve that she will possess "vidya" (knowledge of self) by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge and hence will be like God. God gave a strict command not to eat the fruit, because eating the "forbidden fruit" is an act of disobedience to God. After eating the fruit, Adam and Eve's eyes were opened to the knowledge which resulted in shame and loss of their innocence. They became spiritually dead, losing fellowship with God. Adam and Eve covered themselves with fig leaves because they suddenly realized they were naked. God gave Adam & Eve free will to choose, and they chose to disobey.
RM--20:00 Christianity was started by Emperor Constantine. Christ never used the term Christian. Churches started under Constantine.
SB--Constantine originally killed Christians. Christian means Christ like. The Apostles and Jesus' earthly brothers started churches.
RM--Wrong. It is true that Constantine did "originally" kill Christians, but that was before he became Christian himself. This is a slick manipulation on SB's part. The relevant point is that the NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN BY AN EDITORIAL TEAM UNDER CONSTANTINE. Whatever the early apostles and "earthly brothers" taught was superseded by the Church as a theocratic institution that went on a global rampage to conquer, plunder... which continues today by institutions such as Southern Baptist Church in places like Nagaland. Also, the early "brothers" included some like Thomas who got thrown out of the bible because their ideas were counter to centralized thought control. I am referring to Christianity as it exists now as a formal institution, the Southern Baptist Church being a prominent example.
SB--Historical facts prove that the New Testament was written in the 1st century, not in the 4th century under Constantine. The Da Vinci Code and Hollywood movies are not sources of historical facts. Early church leaders from the year 96 to 112 AD recorded 24 of the 27 New Testament Scriptures as accurate and valid, 200 years before Constantine. It needs to be understood that the Council of Nicea did not create nor re-write the New Testament, but rather to reaffirm the books that were already written by the apostles. Therefore, the apostles' written records were NOT superseded by the Church. The Council of Nicea comprised of 300 bishops, under Constantine was to vote on, "Who is Christ?" and "What is the Trinity?" In regards to Constantine's conversion to Christianity, historians such as Hodgkin and Durant stated that his conversion was politically motivated rather than a personal conviction.
Prior to Southern Baptist missionaries' "global rampage to conquer, plunder" as you stated, in Nagaland, the Naga tribes were engaged in head-hunting and decapitation of each other. The Brits and particularly Christian missionaries put a stop to this horrendous practice.
The gospel of Thomas you are referring to was found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945. Scholars date the gospel of Thomas writings to mid-fourth century AD. Early church councils followed certain principles to decide whether a book from the New Testament was wholly inspired by God. The questions they would ask are 1. Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? 2. Was the book being accepted by the Body of Christ at large? 3. Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? 4. Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit? The gospel of Thomas fails all four principles. Early Biblical scholars determined that this book was not written by the doubting Thomas. Further, this book cannot be confirmed with other scriptures in the New Testament.
RM--25:16 Mentions Vatican as root of Christianity.
SB--Catholicism is not Christianity.
RM--Protestantism came out of Catholicism through the process known as Reformation by Martin Luther. So Vatican, the root of Catholicism, is also the root of Christianity's various branches that splintered off later.
SB--Christianity began long before Catholicism. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus states, "And I tell you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Catholics consider Peter as the first pope and head of the church. Scripture dictates that Jesus is the head of His church, not Peter or other popes. Around 45AD, the name "Christians" was coined for followers of Christ for the first time in Antioch, current day Turkey. Christian means Christ-like. Prior to this name, they called themselves disciples, believers, saints, and brethren. The early apostles established churches through their missions.
Martin Luther protested against the Catholic Church because the church was teaching false doctrine as truth. He wanted them to return to the original Scriptures. Instead, the Catholic Church corrupted and perverted the Bible for power and greed.
Prior to Luther, numerous Christians attempted to stop the Catholic Church from perverting of Scriptures and secularization. Christians who gave their lives for this cause were John Wycliffe, John Huss, John of Wessel to name a few. Dissenting churches adhered to the Scriptures, while the Catholic Church began to adopt new practices and doctrines. Therefore, Catholicism is not Christianity.
It is true that there are many denominations in the Christian church, but there is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Messiah.
RM--They say according to Christianity, Gandhi would not have gone to heaven.
SB--Christians are prohibited from making this judgment.
RM--SB is being evasive. Christians are NOT prohibited from saying that anyone who does not accept Jesus goes to Hell. SB must watch his own church's sermons, including such luminaries like Billy Graham - always using fear of hell to tell them that Jesus is the ONLY way. If they accepted that heaven is possible without accepting Jesus, the whole game would change - church would not have exclusivity, other religions would have to be respected, the power structure and clash with heathens would end - SB should champion this internally in his church.
SB--Christians' only motive is for our brothers and sisters to spend eternity with our Creator. To judge and discuss whether a particular individual(s) will go to heaven or hell is prohibited according to Scriptures. Billy Graham does not judge anyone, but rather warns about the consequences to come if we stray off the path to God. Our Father has given us the freedom to accept or reject Him. In John 12:47-48, Jesus said, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."
SB--28:06 Mention of Mormons. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were con-artists and not Christians.
RM--This posture illustrates my systems model : They have a linear and exclusive chronology of prophets that ended long ago, and all claims by those outside that chronology are to be demonized in the way he does here.
SB--Joseph Smith was known to have at least 30 wives, with 10 of them already married. The Bible prohibits multiple wives though people practiced polygamy. Further, Joseph Smith declared numerous prophecies which never occurred. The Book of Deuteronomy details the test for a prophet clearly. If the prophet's prophecy does not take place, then he will be put to death. One of Joseph Smith's prophecies was that New York would be destroyed because people rejected Mormonism. Last time I checked, New York is still standing. Further, the writings of the Book of Mormon were supposedly written between 2600BC to 421AD. Joseph Smith plagiarized word for word from many chapters of the King James Bible (1611AD). I know this fact because I physically compared KJ Bible to the Book of Mormon. I apologize for demonizing Mr. Smith by calling him a con-artist. He should be called "Custodian of Misgotten Gains" and "Confident Operator".
RM--29:43 Jews cannot accept Jesus.
SB--Jews are waiting on Jesus to come, but they are expecting him to come as a conquering king. Many Jews have accepted Christ or become secular.
RM--My point is still valid. Jews do NOT accept the same Jesus as Christianity. They might accept some future Jesus but not the history-centric Jesus of Nazareth as per Christianity. These two religions have separate and irreconcilable history-centric beliefs.
SB--During Jesus' ministry on earth, the Pharisees and the Sadducees did not accept Jesus' claim of deity and His interpretation of the Law. He said things like, "Get rid of your meaningless rituals. There are more important things to consider, such as Love, Compassion, and Justice. It is more important to have a clean heart rather than a clean cup." In essence, Jesus was rebuking the Jewish community and telling them to repent and turn from their sinful ways. By the time of the Apostles' ministries, droves of Jews turned to Jesus as their Savior. Today many Jews are accepting Jesus as their Savior. Jews for Jesus, Chosen People Ministries, Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, International Federation of Messianic Jews, and Messianic Israel Alliance are some of the Jewish organizations who reach out to Jews.
The Old and New Testament of the Bible are Jewish, written by Jews. The Old Testament that Jews read in their synagogues describes the same Jesus in the New Testament who fulfilled the law by His sacrifice for humanity. The God described in the Bible is the God of the Jews and Gentiles. First group to accept Jesus as their Messiah were Jews. Without the Jews, we would not have the Word of God revealed to us in the Scriptures. Our God did not choose the Jews because they were better than non-Jews or for eternal glory. Scriptures states that God set apart this group from the rest for a special job—spreading the Good News and for special service and worship. They were supposed to set an example to the rest of the world according to God.
SB—RM in 30:20 Provides a few stipulations for being Jesus.
SB--In actuality there are many.
RM--So what? My point stands that the Jesus state of consciousness is not available to any other human as per Christianity, which is in contrast to the Hindu view of aham Brahmamsi.
SB--"I am Brahman" or "I am that I am", or "I am god" is addressed in Genesis 3:5 when Satan deceives Eve by convincing her that eating the fruit will make her a god. When reality sets in, Adam & Eve realize that "aham Brahmimsi" is false.
Q & A
SB--Rajiv quotes a Jesuit Catholic and a Vatican Catholic Harvard professor – they aren't Christians. Catholicism rejects much of what the Bible says. Catholics worship Mary and the "Saints".
SB--This attitude that "my Southern Baptism is the only legit Christianity" is precisely what I wish to bring out as the curse of history centrism. Thanks to SB for helping me make my point.
SB--The BIBLE is the Word of God. Southern Baptists refers to Baptists in the southern part of the US. It is not another religion.
RM--"If it weren't for the Church, Jesus would have just been considered a Rishi"
SB-- this isn't true. The Bible says everything was created w/ Christ and nothing was created without him.
RM--In the Hindu system, too, everything is created from Brahman, in fact everything IS Brahman. My point is different and he either does not understand or want to understand. Rishi state is available to every human and is unity consciousness with Brahman. Jesus state is not available to any other person. Thats the difference, not how the world was created.
SB--Romans 8:29—"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
To be Christ-like, one must surrender to God.
Romans 12:1-2-"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." In Mark 2:14, Jesus says, "follow me". John 3:30—"He must become greater, I must become less".
To be Christ-like, one must be free from sin.
Romans 6:11-14—"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."
To be Christ-like, one must grow closer to Christ.
2Peter 3:18--"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
2Corinthians 3:18--"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
1John 3:2-3--"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."
Let me quote from the 1st Century Jewish Historian, Flavius Josephus (Josephus, The Complete Works, 18.3.3) lived from 37ce-100. "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
RM--"…Christian yoga…"
SB--I know of no Christian Church that offers yoga.
RM--This shows how ignorant he is or is in denial in front of Hindus to dupe them. He should google "christian yoga", go to a christian bookstore, do some research into this form of yoga that is spreading like wild fire.
SB--Again I have no knowledge of any churches in my county that offers yoga. Christian churches that offer yoga in other parts of the United States do not understand the philosophy behind yoga, the philosophy of self-worship which goes back to Satan's deception in the Garden of Eden.
**************************************
http://beingdifferentbook.com/
To join the Yahoo egroup that has been set up specifically to discuss this book, send an email to: RajivMalhotraDiscussion-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
**************************************
No comments:
Post a Comment