Is a return to Vedic lifestyle viable today?

Those who adopt a posture of "lets return to the ideal past" must address the following problem.

The subcontinent's population has grown 100 fold since the classic vedic period. Today's combined South Asia is 1.5 billion whereas in early 1900s Gandhi and the Brits refer to a 300 million population. Thats 5 times growth in a century! If you go back to early British period the writings estimate a subcontinent of 200 million population. Historians have estimated 100 million for the early Mughal period. If you take this back in time, another 2000 years, its likely that the entire subcontinent had no more than 10 million to 20 million population.

Is the classical Vedic lifestyle scalable to support a population density that is 100 times larger? If so, how? We cannot skip this issue and assume without some rigor applied to establish the case. For instance we must inquire into the following with open minds:

• Deforestation has resulted due to pop density explosion. In the Vedic era the subcontinent was covered with forests. Not today.
• Can 1.5 billion (soon to be 2 billion) afford cremations with the same per capita usage of wood as in vedic times? How about wood burnt in yagna, use of butter, other materials - can you give us an Excel model to show what quantities would be involved if 2 billion people followed these rituals that are very intensive users of natural resources?
• What about farming then and the intensive farming techniques required today to support the pop density we have? Is the use of chemicals, genetically modified plants for better yields, etc being forced upon us simply due to pop scale? Is modern transportation, storage, refrigeration, food processing, etc becoming the only way out?
• Vedic era did not have to worry about EFFICIENT USAGE OF NATURAL RESOURCES because the population was tiny and nature was immense and virtually limitless. This is not a valid assumption now.
• Second assumption then was the absence of aggressive competition from outsiders with an expansionist agenda to capture market share in any way possible.

These two realities - over population in a finite planet and external competition - are seldom factored in by our dharmic leaders today. This is caused by their lack of reversing the gaze to understand the world dynamics from our viewpoint. They stopped doing purva paksha after the "victory" over Buddhists, and turned into parrots chanting old purva paksha debates and other slogans old and new. Many also turned blind and disinterested in real world matters like the one mentioned above.

Believe me, as someone who spends a lot of serious thinking time daily on such matters, I would love to develop practical solutions to today's dilemmas facing humanity. Thats what my Apps programs are trying to do with the help of third party experts.

So the point is that mere dismissal of western civilization does not by itself establish the viability of dharmic civilization for today's world situation. 

Maybe a very large scale population reduction over the next century is becoming unavoidable. But that is not easily achieved due to the enormous politics at stake - each subgroup in a fragmented society wants its numbers to grow. So does humanity face vicious cycles from which a solution has not yet been proposed? 

I am not looking for chauvinism, slogans, blame game, etc. but serious inputs.

-RM

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One of your points is: "What about farming then and the *intensive farming techniques* required today to support the pop density we have? Is the use of *chemicals, genetically modified plants* for better yields, etc being forced upon us simply due to pop scale? Is modern transportation, storage, refrigeration, food processing, etc becoming the only way out?"

Since the question asked is in the Vedic framework, I assume we are talking of a model which is based on Vegetarianism as an alternative. This change alone can make a huge difference because, apart from population, one of the culprits is meat industry. ...In simple terms one hectare of rain forest cut down to feed human population can feed ten time more vegetarians as compared to meat eaters. [RM: Agreed.]

The use of chemicals for better yield is again a myth propagated by industry. I can say this because I have worked with a group who promotes organic farming. Initially I thought them to be a bunch of Jholawalas but now I have seen that the yield is far better without the use of chemicals. Not only that, the quality of food is also far better. (e.g. ) 

Genetically modified foods are an even bigger danger then the chemicals that we used. 

Firstly, the increased productivity is a myth fabricated by industry and scientists on its payrolls. The increase is said to be a result of pest resistant property of the crop but so far, the bugs have outsmarted the engineers. 

Secondly, in Punjab, where bt cotton is being grown (cotton belt), the problems that have arisen are miscarriages (humans and animals), increased infertility, allergic reactions and death of cattle fed remnants of crops. 

Thirdly, experiments done on animals have established stunted human growth, intestinal cancer and stomach cancer due to GM crops. 

Fourthly, GM crops reduce crop variety by pollinating with non GM plants. 

Fifthly, inter generational studies on animals have shown that it is not necessary that the manifestation of any side effects will appear in first generation. I suggest everyone to watch a movie called Food Inc. for a better idea.

[RM: Good point. So we must do a point by point rigorous analysis of dharmic civ versus alternatives, to determine what aspects should stay, which ones need to be updated (like smritis get updated), and which are to be rejected and replaced...]

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I would argue not. Almost all of the vedic systems were heavily wedded to the land we live in, the environment, the rural and pre-industrial setup.

Now, this does not mean that the vedas and our shrutis and smritis by themselves are of no value and hence junk. They have principled eternal messages in them that need to be imbibed in society. There are lessons for stability of mankind and society that need to be retained forever. However the parts that were context and time and space related cannot be used in a new Dharma Shastra.

What we also have to realize is the vedic systems themselves have undergone huge changes in the land scape that is Bharat. The Naastika movements, the Bhakti movements and not to mention the mlecha attacks on our lands have changed the vedic ways very significantly. 

Post industrial colonization and indeed our "secular" republic have done their parts to be essentially an anti hindu state. 

In a more normal society, I have no doubt that our Vedic or to be more precise dharmic ways would undergo a natural evolution and change and adapt with the times as needed. A strong core state post Gupta period precluded such possibilities.

We do have that core state again, with a minimal security guarantees. The need of the hour is to transform the governance structures of this core state to be in alignment with Dharmic principles. What is "holy" to us is not "secularism" "liberalism" or even "democracy". These are evolutions of the west and quite frankly we do not need any lessons from the west on how to run a humane society.

What we do need are some structural elements that are specifically suited to a post industrial society that we can learn from.

Example, in the US the written constitution and laws are avowedly non sectarian but the unwritten constitution (the actual ways and values of society) are decidedly governed on a protestant ethos.

India needs something similar. Where the state is the chief propagator of dharmic systems (this has nothing to do with religion). I personally do not consider SD to be a religion at all. 

I have many more thoughts and there is an excellent thread http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5586 that explores some of these issues. Please read, if you have interest. Thanks.

-JBT

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I don't think it is viable; at least, not in the sense that certain communities of the West (Amish, Chabad Lubavichers etc.) have sought to surround themselves in the trappings of an imagined "traditional" lifestyle. And why should it be? Adopting an outward lifestyle and material environment based on a highly literalist interpretation of some historical time in the past, is by definition very history-centric. As dharmics we don't accord that sort of primacy to historical narrative.

What is important is recognizing the consistent unity of past and present; identifying the current relevance of traditional frameworks of thought, even in an age which (at a material level) bears no apparent resemblance to the antiquity in which they were conceived. This is what enables our siddhantha to evolve rather than standing still; it is a living system of hermeneutics that adapts to new times and circumstances, not a dogma that derives its sole authority from the fact of historical revelation (and is thus inherently limited to a specific historical vantage point.)

-KM

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Even living in Western society one can live a Vedic lifestyle to some extent .I don't think having a Vedic lifestyle means one has to go backwards to some `stone age' or something. Living Dharmic is about finding a balance and harmony in whatever surrounding one lives in by taking the best from all directions without harming yourself or society as a whole .Vedic lifestyle and modern technology can go hand in hand. Modern technology is like a knife where either you can use it to cut an apple or you can use it to stab someone as it depends on the person behind it..

There's probably many Vedic solutions for the worlds current crisis on all levels.That's why the environment is ripe for Vedic ideas and principles to flourish but for now we see them repackaged cutting off their Hindu roots or we have Hindus promoting them to fit into a western template.. Rajiv's positive critique on these Western templates not only highlights this digestion but also shows an alternative world view from a Vedic perspective for people to judge themselves to what is better for them..Which is something the Hindutva movement itself needs to rediscover itself because so far it has failed to present an alternative based on Hindu principles and values to attract the masses.

-AS

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[Multiple posts combined below...]

1) UV: That major part of Karma Kanda is about sensual gratification is again a recent construct based on external reading of the Vedic mantras (even Sayana from India can be blamed for this). That there is a need for admonishment against procuring excessive wealth is again a narrative without any basis. What is this "excessive" - this is subjective view. To take Ambanis as an example, why should they have guilt or remorse for making a good house for themselves? In fact, the proportion of their income spent on their house is possibly a fraction of what I have spent to acquire my own house (as a proportion of my income). Also, who are we to prejudge others by assuming that Ambanis do not do any philanthropic activities? Guilt associated with money has never been a Dharmic construct - at most, if arrogance comes as a result of wealth, this is prohibited but equally, arrogance of knowledge, arrogance of physical attributes, arrogance of owning land has been equally castigated. Janaka is reverted as the ultimate Jivanmukta equal to other saints. Also, if one reads literature like Puranas (which were known in every house or neighbourhood till 150 years back), there is enough push towards Daana and people were encouraged to build wells, roads, offer water to guest, do not eat till you offer food to someone else, building tanks, etc for wealthy people was aggressively encouraged. In India, people are always encouraged but no one is forced or mandated by an authority - change has to come from within and not without. Coming back to Dana, I quote from Yoga Vashishtha where controlling the mind or going beyond the mind is stated as the real goal of life, there is a line as below -

Adhyatma Gyana, company of Sat people, abandonment of mental conditioning and Pranayama are the means to overcome the mind. Ignoring these and resorting to violent practices like Hatha Yoga, austerities (like Dana and other forms of physical self control), pilgrimages, rites & rituals is a waste of time. Self knowledge alone bestows delight on you. A man of self-knowledge alone lives and hence again self-knowledge, O Rama!

There is a huge need to unlearn our understanding of the past; unfortunately, when Vedic lifestyle word is mentioned, people think of words like Karma Kanda and the communist narrative of what this means rather than understanding the real meaning of what this lifestyle means. Lifestyle is an external representation of an internal thought or truth and if we therefore focus our attention of internal thought behind Vedic lifestyle, our view can get closer aligned to the true meaning of this word. Also, we can also then learn the mistakes from the past (when empty ritualism without understanding the meaning behind rituals was undertaken) and avoid repeating these. 

2) VA: I am not sure where you have derived the view that Hindu traditions do not criticize excessive accumulation of wealth. Aparigraha and Santosha are core Hindu principles. 'Lobha' is considered as one of the three gates to Naraka in the Gita. The Upanishads too say that we should overcome Vittaishanaa. The Vedic Karmakanda is not necessarily meant for those who want sense gratification. Rather, it is an obligation for us to participate in this Karmakanda to reciprocate the kindly actions of the Devatas. The example of Ambanis is inapplicable to your argument. They are not traditional Hindus. In fact, the nouveau rich in India have imbibed neither the best in Hindu traditions, not that in the Western traditions. Which is why we see monstrosities like the very ugly home of the Ambanis. 

3) SR: What we are seeking today is NOT just sensual gratification, but luxury, greed and consumerism.. the objective is to get everything without need to put any physical work.. we want things right our door step.. and we want more and more.. if tomorrow iphone 6 comes, we want that, even though the current iphone 4 is enough for us.. this is the elite life style of european society, where they got everything through slave labour.. today, the petrol has replaced slave labour, but the life style is same.. the result is over exploitation of earth.. this is NOT dharma.. and this is NOT sanathan (Sustainable).. when fossil fuel dries up, (or at least prices skyrocket), we all will be in hell.. If we look at our traditional society, every jathi in the society, have to put in physical work and earn the material.. No one sat idle and got everything.. ie, we did not have white collar kind of job.. The head of the village would normally be a successful farming family, and they too would have to do the farming in addition to managing village affairs.. 

4)NG: The vedic thought has a very balanced perspective about material wealth. As long as Artha and Kama are within the bounds of Dharma and Moksha, there is no other additional limit imposed. 

5)PKD: Namaste! If I may enter this very interesting discussion, I would like to say that precisely this point is the focus of my work. To obtain a good success, we need to encourage proper knowledge and information of both sides - west and india - without just relying on prejudice.

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• YagnAs - Vedic lifestyle dosent advocate performance of YagnAs by each one of say 2 Billion of us. Eg: Women are not supposed to perform Agni KAryAs (YagnAs) alone. A "Vishva Maha Yagna" for welfare of the whole world performed by a few 100 men once in an year would suffice.
• Cremation - Assuming that all 2 Billion will not die the same day, the present forest green cover which suffices Cremation needs of today's almost 1 Billion Indians (ie. 80 Million Hindus) should be enough. [Rajiv comment: Need a spreadsheet starting with how many cremations per year can be supported by an acre of forest land. Then calculate acres needed for 80 million. Thats the minimum rigor needed (but lacking), otherwise its one opinion after another.]
• Varna Dharma – When we talk of Vedic Lifestyle a discussion on Varna Dharma is inevitable. Some argue the case of a birth based Varna Dharma and its nature of predicated employment for all and unemployment for none. Some argue the case of a non birth based but Qualification based Varna Dharma stressing the need for Hindu unity. Both have inherent advantages/disadvantages. The matter has to be set straight so that the same doesn’t become an object of silence/ speculation and a tool to be used by colonialists for further divide and rule.
• Deforestation, Pollution - This is mainly because of rapid urbanization. The resulting concentrated setups result in air pollution and destruction of water bodies. Eg: Chennai alone has population of 1 Crore out of 5 Crore Tamil Nadu population. Two rivers Adyar and Coovum here have virtually become sewages. The same holds good for many other cities. Local decentralized village based models have to be supported which are more eco-friendly than the urban concentrated models. Urban Cities may remain as they are. But Villages need to be protected from becoming concrete jungles anymore. This is entirely in the hands of Government and administrative bodies. Decentralization of such kind need not necessarily pave way for another invasion. If the concept of underlying “Integral” unity in Indians is fostered through education of masses and with a centralized Government/defence force at hand it should be OK.
  
• -SK

• [RM comment: Again, OK by what calculation? Precisely what "education" is needed, how much will that cost, how attainable is this education? Once people get "educated" this way, how will that translate into sustainability? I know plenty of so-called educated people who are dysfunctional morons in practical terms. If education were enough, then why has the educated person of Varanasi (and other cities) continued to throw trash on the streets, why has the educated person been smoking that is dangerous for his health, why is the educated person immersed in corruption...? I find such pronouncements evasive and the signature of an escapist mindset. The same Indians who are rigorous and analytical in their professions, and would not go to their boss with such pronouncements, should also demonstrate rigor in thinking about tradition. Why not build us a model we can examine?]